"Help me..."

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muttonboy
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"Help me..."

Post by muttonboy » Thu May 27, 2010 11:11 am

Here's a twist you weren't expecting: that the guy in the cabin who said "Help me!" was actually future (or current) ME!! I'd leave this cabin but there's ash around it, but actually the ash doesn't matter just some guy's rules matter, and that guy only matters because he said he matters, and when there's a new guy in charge he'll just say nothing matters and that won't matter anyway because we all die regardless and we end up in the same after-death world though slightly different where there is no concept of time even though events transpire in chronological order (including divorce and death) and where once we realize we are important to each other a "Christian Shepard" (of no religious affiliation, mind you) will explain this to us and we can move on to the Light of No Time - but some can opt out and continue to wait in the place where there is no time, and even though the implication is that they will eventually move on, the idea that there is no "now" here and that when they do decide to move on they will in fact move on at the same "now" as everyone else, they weren't in the non-religious church during out Losties "now"...

Guys, I'm trying so hard, but I just don't get it. As I watch the very epic and well-shot scene with Jack and MIB fighting, I can't help but think it is meaningless, and thus it feels so much less epic than it should be, and, for me, really is tainting the entire build-up of Season 6. There is no proof that MIB will harm the world, right? (Sure, someone said he would, but half the characters are liars, and the other half don't have their facts straight.) Other than MIB finally snapping - after a life of craziness followed by his brother killing him - and finally killing a lot of people on Island, I don't see him as a real threat (based on what's in the show), just a guy who wants to go have a hot dog at street vendor (keep in mind that his own plan made him "human", so he wouldn't have been floating around as smoke in the Bronx). So Jack kills him, which does nothing (other than allowing Jack to put the plug back in - which doesn't matter anyway, as, a) the Island isn't important, b) the Island is on the ocean floor in Made-Up-Pre-Heaven-World, and c) Hurley notes that one can make up his own rules, and so Jacob's "You can't leave the Island" was really just due to him being a sniveling knob). Maybe for me I just feel that overwhelmingly the discussions have been about mysteries, and most of these (if not all) pertain in large part to the Island. The characters were players in these discussions, but the focus was never solely on their lives, the focus was clearly on the guts of the story, and in The End they just played the story as an aside to, ultimately, everyone eventually going to heaven. Am I missing something integral here? I desperately want to be missing something: I listen to podcasts and 90% are so positive, yet there seems to be no discussions on what I've said above! The Lowdown is my last hope...

TheRadioTower
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Re: "Help me..."

Post by TheRadioTower » Thu May 27, 2010 2:43 pm

Of course it matters. Several characters (Dogen, Richard, Widmore) had laid out the same idea that if smokey leaves, it would be a disastrous scenario. Several sources are confirming the same thing and even if we ignore them for a moment, having a murderous smoke monster on the loose in the real world who has no respect for most humans is not a great idea. Jack smokey fight is not just epic because Jack is doing something to save the world, it's epic because Jack is getting payback for what smokey did to Locke, Sun, Sayid etc. Jack putting the cork back mattered as had the island been destroyed it would have been the end of the world. You can't look at the sideways world to be analogous to the real world. The island doesn't matter in the sideways world, the island being underwater is just supposed to represent the idea that this world that these people created was specifically designed to make sure that the island is not a part of their lives. The real world needs the island for its survival but the sideways world is not the real world. For me "Across The Sea" and the fireside chat in "What they died for" the final piece of mythology we were getting. Finale was for the resolution of our characters.

Perry
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: "Help me..."

Post by Perry » Thu May 27, 2010 5:00 pm

muttonboy wrote:The characters were players in these discussions, but the focus was never solely on their lives, the focus was clearly on the guts of the story, and in The End they just played the story as an aside to, ultimately, everyone eventually going to heaven. Am I missing something integral here? I desperately want to be missing something
Clearly you have missed the main focus of the show. The characters were always the main focus of the show and D&C have always stated that. Like TheRadioTower said, the finale was for the characters, NOT the mysteries.
Sure, for us, discussing the mysteries was the main focus and provided the interest, but developing the characters was the show's main intention.
If you wanted clear explainations of every mystery, which I know I certainly didn't, that would have taken like 4 episodes worth of Matrix-style Architect exposition, and made any sort of rewatch of the series pointless.

Claude
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Re: "Help me..."

Post by Claude » Thu May 27, 2010 8:11 pm

Rest assured we will cover the confusing parts of the show and put it into some kind of perspective. It may not be a satisfying one, though. I think Lost is like being a car on a trip with your parents. You think you're all going to Disneyland, but when you get there, it's a Dentist office. Now, the whole car ride your parents have been talking about your teeth, how much candy you eat. But there was talk about Disneyland at some point, and you assumed that was the destination. While you're upset you won't meet Mickey, you might realize seeing the dentist was important. (worst Lost analogy ever?)

Justin
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Re: "Help me..."

Post by Justin » Thu May 27, 2010 8:20 pm

I'm the kid who originally thought he was going to Disneyland, realized he was also going to the Dentist's office, then decided we were going to both places, only to find out there is no Disneyland, the dentist is all there ever was.

Claude
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Re: "Help me..."

Post by Claude » Thu May 27, 2010 8:25 pm

Justin wrote:I'm the kid who originally thought he was going to Disneyland, realized he was also going to the Dentist's office, then decided we were going to both places, only to find out there is no Disneyland, the dentist is all there ever was.
I think you crystallized my analogy. Going to both places seemed logical until it obviously wasn't (arriving at The End).

muttonboy
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Re: "Help me..."

Post by muttonboy » Thu May 27, 2010 10:26 pm

Perry wrote:Sure, for us, discussing the mysteries was the main focus and provided the interest, but developing the characters was the show's main intention.
Yes, I think this is exactly my problem!! The intention of the show is different from the reason it was interesting. Using Claude's analogy, I feel (which is clearly different than what a lot of people are feeling I admit) that through the entire car ride Ma and Pa were saying things like, "Hey, we're going to a place where there is candy!" and "Hey, we're going to a place where you sit in a chair and it moves!" and "Hey, you're gonna be laughing a lot!" and "Hey, you're gonna see a guy in a funny mask!" and so of course I figure we're off to Disneyland, because clearly I was mislead: candy is just a sucker after the pain; the moving chair ain't a ride, it's just a chair that I get flopped back in; I'm laughing because of the gas; and the funny mask ain't Mickey, it's Dr. Rootcanal...AND THEN, to add to it, the car ride had nothing to do with the destination, as the Dentist was just next door all along (wait a minute, maybe this is making sense...!)

I'm still confused about Smokey though: to get off the Island he had to uncork the Island and turn human, and so he clearly never would have been a smoke monster in New York, just a guy, and he only killed people who were trying to stop him from getting off the Island (which I think we all cheered for when our Losties were trying to get off the Island and the Freighter was stopping them). I guess my big problem might be I was waiting for the Flash-Sideways to show me the implication of MIB getting off the island, and it didn't, and so I have nothing to truly base any sense of need to stop MIB from getting off the Island (Dogan et al just saying he'll destroy the world to me is weightless in the Lost universe as so many characters say things and then switch them).

Whew, ok, maybe I got it: I bolded one statement above and I think that is issue I have. Hopefull C&J can help me with this...

r10th3r0
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Re: "Help me..."

Post by r10th3r0 » Thu May 27, 2010 11:19 pm

I'm almost glad things turned out the way they did (kind of shitty), because otherwise, imagine how depressed we'd all be now that the show is over.

Vince
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Re: "Help me..."

Post by Vince » Fri May 28, 2010 3:39 am

What if you did go the dentist..and it turned out to be Bernard!? And he was able to show you something better than Disneyland? Better than candy? Something you hadn't imagined?...

For the record, this finale was not what I expected but I loved it. I've got more thoughts on this but they're coming Claude-&-Justin style, i.e. long-form...

akritas
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Re: "Help me..."

Post by akritas » Sat May 29, 2010 12:29 am

Justin wrote:I'm the kid who originally thought he was going to Disneyland, realized he was also going to the Dentist's office, then decided we were going to both places, only to find out there is no Disneyland, the dentist is all there ever was.
And to complete the experience, all the other people in the car say I'm missing the point when I ask why we drove 2000 miles for a dentist and stopped at every Disney Store along the way.

I thought the finale was an excellent finale. It was apparent to me after ATS that Darlton would obscure their mythology rather than reveal one that was internally consistent. The finale was well past the time to tie together earlier plotlines, so I was able to just enjoy it as is. It struck an excellent emotional tone and I had no problems with the abstract conclusions to the Season 6 Island plot (cork, MIB, golden cave, etc.). Ending with Jack's eye closing was both predictable and genius (far too often deemed mutually exclusive). The FSW provided a worthwhile epilogue within the finale, although I have yet to make up my mind on how well it functions as the ending to the series.
Perry wrote: Clearly you have missed the main focus of the show. The characters were always the main focus of the show and D&C have always stated that. Like TheRadioTower said, the finale was for the characters, NOT the mysteries.
Sure, for us, discussing the mysteries was the main focus and provided the interest, but developing the characters was the show's main intention.
Yes, the characters were central to the show, as with any good story. I personally found it fascinating when the Island was also a character, an aspect that was mostly dropped in Season 6. I don't think it's unfair to point out that for five seasons Darlton threw out a lot of stuff (and airtime) that in the end, either didn't make any sense or was never revisited.
muttonboy wrote:Yes, I think this is exactly my problem!! The intention of the show is different from the reason it was interesting. Using Claude's analogy, I feel (which is clearly different than what a lot of people are feeling I admit) that through the entire car ride Ma and Pa were saying things like, "Hey, we're going to a place where there is candy!" and "Hey, we're going to a place where you sit in a chair and it moves!" and "Hey, you're gonna be laughing a lot!" and "Hey, you're gonna see a guy in a funny mask!" and so of course I figure we're off to Disneyland, because clearly I was mislead: candy is just a sucker after the pain; the moving chair ain't a ride, it's just a chair that I get flopped back in; I'm laughing because of the gas; and the funny mask ain't Mickey, it's Dr. Rootcanal...AND THEN, to add to it, the car ride had nothing to do with the destination, as the Dentist was just next door all along (wait a minute, maybe this is making sense...!)
Ha, well said. I think we can all agree that shows can and do have more than one "point" or "intention." Characters and the Island both played a central role on LOST; they punted the latter.
TheRadioTower wrote:Of course it matters. Several characters (Dogen, Richard, Widmore) had laid out the same idea that if smokey leaves, it would be a disastrous scenario. Several sources are confirming the same thing and even if we ignore them for a moment, having a murderous smoke monster on the loose in the real world who has no respect for most humans is not a great idea.
As muttonboy initially pointed out, in LOST, telling is not the same as showing. Regardless, it is a valid question to ask whether or not the ending on the Island determines the existence of the FSW. Likewise, did the Incident have any effect other than "whatever happened, happened" and causing them to time travel to 2007? Ultimately, with the incomplete mythology of the show, who knows?

While I thought the FSW worked well as presented in The End, it will be interesting to rewatch Season 6 and see how compelling of a vision of Purgatory/generalized afterlife it is. I applaud C&J for both loving the show, but also being willing to question it. Why should this be discouraged? To me, this is what makes the podcast and other discussions enjoyable and interesting.

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