Time Travel

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David3
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Time Travel

Post by David3 »

I think we misinterpreted the way LOST is going to do time travel. It seems that with each jump they are changing the past, but I don't think they are.

I think this is the method the writers are using:

There is one single unchangeable timeline. The events we are seeing now always happened. There was no timeline when these things didn't happen. To use Back to the Future as an example. Marty originally lived timeline A, he then travels to the past makes some changes created a new timeline B where he now has a successful family, etc. Well, in the world of Lost, only the B timeline ever existing. The only timeline to ever exist was the one where, throughout time, people from the future have popped in and out from time to time.

Now to the question of why Sawyer couldn't get Desmond to open the door. Dan knows that Desmond never met Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, and Charlotte pre-crash. Therefore, he knows that no matter what Sawyer does, Desmond will not answer that door. Dan is able to get Desmond to answer because after looking in his journal he realizes that he did in fact meet Desmond by himself. He knocks and Desmond answers.

Using tonights episode as an example, Locke can talk to Alpert because we know by future events that this meeting took place. We've seen Locke falshbacks where Alpert visits him because of tonights meeting. We also knew that no matter what any of them did, there was no way the bomb was going off beacuse the island still exists in the future. Not being able to detonate the bomb would be an example of not being able to change the past.

You-Know-Who
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Re: Time Travel

Post by You-Know-Who »

I still think there is some kind of paradox... or I'm just confused.

TheRadioTower
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Re: Time Travel

Post by TheRadioTower »

You-Know-Who wrote:I still think there is some kind of paradox... or I'm just confused.
There is no paradox, read David3's post again.

For me, as long as they don't go the Heroes route with time-travel, everything is fine by me.

Vince
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Re: Time Travel

Post by Vince »

I think this season's theme of time travel begins to shed light on one of last season's more mysterious lines.

So far we've heard from Pierre Chang and Farraday that there are limitations to what can be done with time travel - rules. In 'Flashes Before Your Eyes' we heard Mrs. Hawking tell Des about universal course correction (don't remembeer if she used the term 'rules'). These have established the idea that certain events happen and can't be changed no matter what a time-skipper might try (ie, can't kill Hitler or prematurely meet Des to get supplies from the Hatch).

Dan could confidently advise burying Jughead b/c he knew The Island would exist 50 years later. Nothing to worry about, right? His knowledge of the future (or a future) made the possible alternative, negative consequences irrelevant (ie. he could do nothing and all would be fine). Jughead would not explode (at least not for 50 years) and the rules of time travel dictate that could not be changed.

Now to Ben, who is clearly familiar with time travel (working with Mrs. Hawking, asking the Tunisian hotel clerk for confirmation of the year) and therefore is probably familiar with the rules of time travel. So, when Keamy held a gun to Alex's head, Ben's confident defiance could reasonably be interpreted as the logical result of knowledge of the future (or a future) in which Alex existed, therefore dictating Alex's death an impossibility, just like Daniel's confidence about Jughead. (as I write I'm also reminded of Charlie's confidence when he was in The Looking Glass, casual in perilous circumstances b/c Des told him he would push the jamming signal button, no matter what. he had nothing to fear from the 2 Others threatening his life) However, when Keamy did kill Alex Ben was clearly in shock, stating only "he changed the rules." It would seem that Widmore somehow found a way to alter the unalterable course of events, changing the rules of time travel.

So, that leads to the questions:
-Does Widmore have a way around the rules of time travel? Can he create a new stream rather than simply travelling forwards and backwards along a single, "true" stream (as Faraday put it in 5x01)?
-Is that ability a fruit of Faraday's research, which Widmore funded?
-Does Widmore know about Des being a unique exception?
-Will Jughead detonate?
-WTF?

David3
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Re: Time Travel

Post by David3 »

Basically the events we are seeing are not changes, they are what happened at that point in time. They happened because of future events, but they happened.

Examples of impossible changes would have been:

1. Killing Alpert
2. Killing Widmore
3. Detonating the bomb

We know that those three things couldn't possible happen because it would change the future that we already know exists. The future where Alpert and Widmore are alive and the bomb has never been detonated.

Paradoxes would occur if they were allowed to do something that would prevent them from coming back in time in the first place to do the event they did. For example, say Locke decided to shoot and kill Widmore when he ran away. Penny is never born. Desmond never meets and then breaks up with her. Desmond never participates in a solo race around world. Desmond never ends up on the island. Desmond doesn't NOT push the button. Oceanic 815 doesn't crash. Locke doesn't make it to the island. Locke doesn't travel back in time. Locke doesn't shoot Widmore in the past, therefore Widmore does have a daughter named Penny, she does meet Desmond and so on and so on. It would cause a big circle. It's the kind of thing that "could cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space time continuum, and destroy the entire universe! Granted, that's a worse case scenario. The destruction might in fact be very localized, limited to merely our own galaxy."

David3
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Re: Time Travel

Post by David3 »

Vince wrote:Now to Ben, who is clearly familiar with time travel (working with Mrs. Hawking, asking the Tunisian hotel clerk for confirmation of the year) and therefore is probably familiar with the rules of time travel. So, when Keamy held a gun to Alex's head, Ben's confident defiance could reasonably be interpreted as the logical result of knowledge of the future (or a future) in which Alex existed, therefore dictating Alex's death an impossibility, just like Daniel's confidence about Jughead. (as I write I'm also reminded of Charlie's confidence when he was in The Looking Glass, casual in perilous circumstances b/c Des told him he would push the jamming signal button, no matter what. he had nothing to fear from the 2 Others threatening his life) However, when Keamy did kill Alex Ben was clearly in shock, stating only "he changed the rules." It would seem that Widmore somehow found a way to alter the unalterable course of events, changing the rules of time travel.

So, that leads to the questions:
-Does Widmore have a way around the rules of time travel? Can he create a new stream rather than simply travelling forwards and backwards along a single, "true" stream (as Faraday put it in 5x01)?
-Is that ability a fruit of Faraday's research, which Widmore funded?
-Does Widmore know about Des being a unique exception?
-Will Jughead detonate?
-WTF?
I had the exact same thoughts. By "he changed the rules," Ben meant, he changed time. We've already been told that Desmond is uniquely special and can change time. Are we going to find out that Widmore is too? Maybe Widmore's nightmares are due to new memories from somehow changing time.

420brownie
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Re: Time Travel

Post by 420brownie »

Totally agree with you guys on the rules. Also, hadn't thought about how it might apply to Alex, but I think you may be on to something there.

You-Know-Who
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Re: Time Travel

Post by You-Know-Who »

I think this article (http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/01/ ... s.php#more) is a really good explanation of the "rules" of time travel on LOST. It definitely helped understand what was going on more clearly.

Perry
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Re: Time Travel

Post by Perry »

Well I finally got done reading all the posts. Uni had swamped me and put me behind so that I couldn't catch up... Anyway....

David3's point is what I always assumed. Claude kept mentioning "but that didn't happen in the past" when referring to red shirts dying that travelled back in time. However they can die because they are future versions of themselves, not somehow teleporting the original red shirt onto the island and replacing their mind or something like that.
The only awkward aspect of this, which Heroes has done, is if the future versions ["our" losties] travel back to a time on the island when they were currently on the island and then started meeting themselves. I'm quite sure LOST won't go there.

Also to avoid having a compass that came out of nowhere, we should assume that now Richard has 2 compasses.
Compass/Richard/Locke timeline:
Pre 1954: Compass was manufactured and eventually finds its way to Richard [1 compass exists]
1954: Locke travels back in time and gives Richard a compass [2 compasses exist]
1956: Richard visits baby Locke [2 compasses exist]
1961: Richard visits 5 yr old Locke and shows him the 6 items (including 1 of the compasses[item Locke should have picked]) [2 compasses exist]
Post 2005: Richard runs to Locke's aid and gives him 1 of the compasses to give him in 1954 [2 compasses exist]
Post "Post 2005" event: Locke disappears, travelling back in time with 1 of the compasses, leaving Richard still with 1 [1 compass exists]

An alternative to this, and to avoid dealing with Richard having 2 compasses now is:
1954: Locke travels back in time and gives Richard a compass [1 compass exists]
1956: Richard visits baby Locke [1 compass exists]
1961: Richard visits 5 yr old Locke and shows him the 6 items (including the compass[item Locke should have picked]) [1 compass exists]
Sometime Pre 2005: Compass was manufactured and eventually obtained by Richard, who now has 2 [2 compasses exist]
Post 2005: Richard runs to Locke's aid and gives him 1 of the compasses to give him in 1954 [2 compasses exist]
Post "Post 2005" event: Locke disappears, travelling back in time with 1 of the compasses, leaving Richard still with 1 [1 compass exists]

The period of time between the events "Sometime Pre 2005" and "Post 2005" may be short, but at some point there must have existed 2 compasses. Otherwise, any situation where only 1 compass existed would result in the compass having never been manufactured in the 1st place.

Hmmm... I just thought of a way that technically you could say that only 1 compass existed at any time, but it is kind of cheating a bit. To the 2nd timeline I created, you could add in that some time between 1961 and Pre 2005, the compass that Locke gave Richard was destroyed leaving no compasses until 1 was then manufactured and Richard then requiring it, obtained that compass. Though really the material that the destroyed compass was made of still exists so still 2 lots of compass parts.

Wow, that's a lot on a compass. Wonder how many will start this post and get to the end.

David3
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Re: Time Travel

Post by David3 »

You-Know-Who wrote:I think this article (http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/01/ ... s.php#more) is a really good explanation of the "rules" of time travel on LOST. It definitely helped understand what was going on more clearly.
I agree with some of what the article is saying. I don't agree with the part where it says that we don't have free will. I think when they go back in time, they have the ability to do whatever they want to do, we just know when certain things they do will fail based on the already known future outcome. The thing is, they didn't fail because they can't change the future...the future ended up the way it did after they failed. If they suceeded, then the future they already knew would have been different. Basically, you can create whatever future you want, we can just determine when certain things will or want succeed based on our knowledge of the future.

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