Initial Reactions

[Claude]

So what now?

[TheRadioTower]

We saw smoke monster come out of a woman's vag. Just thought 'd point that out. Go back in time and tell that to Season 1 version of yourself.

[userpjx]

Well, I guess considering we know that the "light" has electromagnetic properties, we have a much clearer idea of what Desmond needs to do now. I thought it was a good episode and I am satisfied for the most part. It still makes no sense that killing Jacob caused Smokey to lose his shape shifting powers, but honestly I care very little about that at this point.

[TheRadioTower]

As for the episode itself, I liked it. I think some people are going to be disappointed that the answers behind the mysteries of the island are so esoteric and philosophical. This episode as a whole felt very fairy-tale like and very meta. The fact that even Jacob does not completely understand "The Answer"- it's like we keep pulling back curtains and keep finding more and more people behind them without anyone actually having any concrete knowledge, there is so much the episode is thematically trying to say about the human curiosity and desire to understand the secrets of the universe. It might be too philosophical for the liking of a portion of Lost audience, many of whom are going to completely miss the subtext. I did not expect there to be this much philosophical beard stroking and poetry just one episode before the finale. I feel like I can write a whole college level essay about this episode

[muttonboy]

So what now?

Hmm. I sort of said this to myself once the episode was over, in the exact same tone that Jacob used to say "What about you?" to Ben. I don't quite know how to feel about this...

[David3]

Jack needs to remove Clothes Degradation Expert from his business card. He was seemingly way off.

[akritas]

As a preface, I completely respect anyone who really enjoyed this episode, and this is the first time I have posted on these boards despite being a long-time listener.

To me, this was the most disappointing and frustrating episode of LOST.

I don't know what's happening, but it seems like they have been having trouble casting recently. I find Sheila Kelley's (Zoe) acting completely uninspiring, and Allison Janney as Mother equally so. The kids were fine, yet remain adequate child actors; thankfully Titus Welliver and Mark Pellegrino did excellent jobs, particularly when acting off each other rather than Janney.

So, the "heart of the Island" is a glowing tunnel of light, of which there is a little bit in all of us. This, and its depiction, only underscored the cheesiness of the episode. After Jacob sends MiB down the Slip 'n Slide to the tunnel of light, Smokey appears? That's not really an answer; given the timing of this episode will they be able to expand upon it? Or anything else? The Rules (beyond Mother "making it" so they can't kill each other)? The Candidates? The Loophole? MiB's lifeless body vs. Smokey? Smokey's shapeshifting powers tied to Jacob? Jacob traveling off-island? The Cabin? Ash? Smokey being worshiped at the Temple (Presumably the Egyptian remains predate the Roman)? Who built the Frozen Donkey Wheel (Mother knocked MiB unconscious and destroyed the well before it was built)? Why can't Smokey leave? The island is a cork?

Ok, maybe this was more of a character episode than one about the mythology and practicality of the show. Well, why does Jacob bring people to the Island? In fact, the whole mythology of the show hinges on Jacob's belief in humanity and MiB's unbelief. Neither was addressed (Mother repeats MiB's line, but when did MiB turn on off-islanders, when did Jacob come to trust them)?

And finally, the Adam and Eve reveal. If I had known that Eve would turn out to be a new character introduced in the episode that reveals Adam and Eve, I wouldn't have spent any time over the years speculating. I know there is an interview floating around where D&C indicate that they didn't know the identities of Adam and Eve when they wrote "House of the Rising Sun", but this is retcon at its worst. At least they didn't include Jack's "it takes 40 or 50 years for clothing to degrade like this" line in the montage. Adam and Eve were simply an opportunity wasted (Hurley: "What if these skeletons are us?"). I'm now expecting that they will reveal that Juliet actually shot some unintroduced red shirt when they were in the outrigger.

I'm happy for those that enjoyed this episode, but to me this one was a big stinker, one that makes a recovery over the next 3 episodes difficult. I'm looking forward to J&C's take.

[TheRadioTower]

^^ Disagree with this post big time. Having one of the original characters be Adam & Eve does not inherently make it a better reveal. If anything it reduces the impact as e have been expecting that to happen since season 1. The mother & MiB being Adam & Eve is more thematically satisfying. What's amazing about this reveal is how right Locke was when he named them Adam and Eve. The mother and MiB are in many ways the Adam and Eve of the show itself. The entire conflict on the show began with these characters, they committed the "original sin" whose consequences our characters are facing. So in that sense them being Adam & Eve has a lot of thematic resonance. Having a couple of Losties be Adam & Eve while cool is just not thematically relevant. I certainly like this answer more that Rose & Bernard being Adam & Eve which was the presumed explanation before this week.

MiB got turned off the humans when he started living with them and realized how selfish and manipulative they were they have a scene where they discuss that dynamic. I think you should give the episode one more chance as a lot of the problems you mentioned are misunderstandings. I don't think they are going to expand further upon island or smokey mysteries, I think this episode is supposed to be the final word on that stuff. I feel that the final 3 episodes are going to be about character resolution.

[JanicM]

it's like we keep pulling back curtains and keep finding more and more people behind them without anyone actually having any concrete knowledge

So true, we went from:
Ben
to Richard
to Dogen
to Jacob
and now to Jacob's mother (who I guess actually knew what the island / the light was).

[David3]

And before Ben there was Beardy (Tom).

[TheRadioTower]

it's like we keep pulling back curtains and keep finding more and more people behind them without anyone actually having any concrete knowledge

So true, we went from:
Ben
to Richard
to Dogen
to Jacob
and now to Jacob's mother (who I guess actually knew what the island / the light was).

I don't think even Jacob's mother knew. I think the whole thing the show was trying to tell us is that no one knows, they all know bits and pieces but no one has complete final knowledge of what's going on and are acting on faith alone.

[David3]

As for the episode, I'm kind of mixed. I'm going to have to watch it a couple of more times.

[Joe Camel]

Does anyone else feel like we the viewers are in the Pearl?

Abrams created possibly the best pilot of any tv show premiere, it was jaw droppingly awesome. The day after the premiere the interenet was a buzz with theories and websites and podcasts devoted to the show. The producers said things like the show will be based on Science or Pseudo-Science and that every prop in every scene is hand picked and has a meaning. This led us on an incredible goose chase picking apart screen caps and looking for meaning in the most minute of details. Yet here we are today with an answer that is based more on mythology than science and we are told that most of the mysteries we clung to are without explaination. Some of the fault is surely our own for pursuing the dangling carrot and acting like fanboys, but I can't help but feel some of the mockery that must be coming from the producers as they look upon our pile of completed notebooks stored in tubes neatly piled in the middle of of the jungle.

I'm not really complaining, I love the show and it has been a fantastic ride, but I do wonder if this is really what Abrams had in mind after that fantastic pilot episode.

I'm looking forward to see whjat C&J think as well, I'm wondering if this will be one of their shorter podcasts as there really wasn't that much meat to the latest episode.

[David3]

Jack needs to remove Clothes Degradation Expert from his business card. He was seemingly way off.

from an interview done today...

CC: Jack is not really an expert in carbon dating.

DL: He's not really a forensic anthropologist. We need to bring in Bones.

CC: Or Charlotte. She's an anthropolgist.

DL: The other theory that I would like to throw out there is that Jacob and his mother were just expert craftsmen. They made those clothes on that loom so well, it would appear that they were only 50 years old in decomposition, when in fact it's several thousand.

CC: Or perhaps the fabric is magic.

[Stephen]

I'm no dramologist, but I think the way Mother was acted was really distracting.

And I was kinda expecting a reveal of MIB's name, a la "Thank you, Ben." I guess his name is a big deal.

Oh, and Smokey coming out of the cave was a nice touch.

[David3]

Two mysteries they Darlton confirmed today WON"T be answered...

I'll put in spoiler vision just in case you consider what won't be answered a spoiler.
Spoiler

1. They're not giving MIB a name. ("I think for us to explain why we're not giving him a name veers too far into the territory of explaining things that we don't feel the need to explain.")

2. We're not going to find out who Juliet shot on the outrigger. ("When we wrote that scene and somebody started shooting at them, we knew exactly who was shooting at them." "Honestly, though, the logistics of getting all the participants in the outriggers in the configuration that was on the A-side of the time loop was actually really daunting. ")

[whir]

I feel like this episode was telling us that we are not going to get many of the answers we want. The light was an analogue for the tree of knowledge. "Mother" stated that all men have a little light, but they always want more. We, the audience are those who seek enlightenment. We are not going to get it. I pray I am wrong. No wonder the producers are planning on going into hiding.

[David3]

I feel like this episode was telling us that we are not going to get many of the answers we want. The light was an analogue for the tree of knowledge. "Mother" stated that all men have a little light, but they always want more. We, the audience are those who seek enlightenment. We are not going to get it. I pray I am wrong. No wonder the producers are planning on going into hiding.

Mother said it herself...

"Every question I answer will simply lead to another question. You should rest."

[whir]

Mother said it herself...

"Every question I answer will simply lead to another question. You should rest."

It seemed like Mother and MiB were the ones that had similar philosophies when it came to humanity. Maybe Jacob will be more willing to enlighten us mere peasants. I won't hold my breath. Not for eleven days anyway. Maybe after the next episode.

[userpjx]

Spoiler

2. We're not going to find out who Juliet shot on the outrigger. ("When we wrote that scene and somebody started shooting at them, we knew exactly who was shooting at them." "Honestly, though, the logistics of getting all the participants in the outriggers in the configuration that was on the A-side of the time loop was actually really daunting. ")

This is perhaps the most disappointing thing I have read. How many hours worth of theorizing on the subject came from TTLD alone. I really wish that this wasn't true.

[TheRadioTower]

^^ It's disappointing but if they couldn't find a way to solve that mystery without doing an entire episode about it, I can understand. For me it's not a big enough mystery for the show to spend an entire episode or even a large portion of the episode on.

[userpjx]

^^ It's disappointing but if they couldn't find a way to solve that mystery without doing an entire episode about it, I can understand. For me it's not a big enough mystery for the show to spend an entire episode or even a large portion of the episode on.

Ultimately I know that you're right, but I wanted to know damn it! :(

On a lighter note, the Jimmy Kimmel show had a funny Lost joke?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anCbYVzs9b8

[David3]

^^ It's disappointing but if they couldn't find a way to solve that mystery without doing an entire episode about it, I can understand. For me it's not a big enough mystery for the show to spend an entire episode or even a large portion of the episode on.

That's pretty much what they said. They couldn't find a way to show it without creating an entire episode about it, and they didn't want to do that.

[CorpsesAndChaos]

i thought this episode was fine.

it seems the writers selected to use a "story telling device" where they would obscure outcomes for as long as possible to keep the jackasses chasing the carrot. so the show became this game about "ANSWERS" and their mediocre characters were secondary. the producers ran with that until season 6 and then turned face and said, "no, no, no... you had it all wrong - this show is about the CHARACTERS!"

well, i thought good writing has the ability to mesh the two together in one coherent revelation, no? now theres a big diaper poop from all the fans about "Answers" as this separate domiain but they whine and whine about HOW theyre revealed to them. yawn. youre watching a comic book made for TV. realize that.

as for the episode... whats the big deal about it? they didnt "ANSWER" enough? they brought in new characters? they didnt go to the exact point of "origin" for their quasi-mythological story to give you "answers"? one thing about myth (and ritual) is that it tries to reconcile PARADOXES. wrap your mind around that for a while. not everything is "answered". and the basis of this OBVIOUS MYTH story from this episode is that not everything for the (crappy) philosophical basis of the show has an "answer".

[akritas]

^^ It's disappointing but if they couldn't find a way to solve that mystery without doing an entire episode about it, I can understand. For me it's not a big enough mystery for the show to spend an entire episode or even a large portion of the episode on.

I think the question that needs to be asked is does this excuse make sense. In a season where people have been jumping in and out of outriggers left and right, is an entire episode, or even the majority of one, required to complete this narrative?

The fact that they are having trouble completing a story arc they began just last season should raise a red flag. A good writer should be able to complete one's own storylines, not make excuses.

[Justin]

Spoiler

I didn't interpret the article as saying that they needed an entire episode. My take away was that they had 2 problems:
1. The outrigger chase did not fit into the story line as they developed it in Season 6.
2. It was logistically difficult to get all the actors involved with Sawyer's outrigger. Many of them are dead and not doing the show anymore.

Now, 2 is not their fault, and I think 1 is a casualty of the intuitive way they write things, they don't plan each scene until they write that episode, and so even though they apparently knew
who was shooting at them, they did not find that it fit into the story to make that happen.

They have given us a lot this season, and I don't expect them to deliver on all possible expectations. I can live with this, it's just one of those realities of TV production.

[TheRadioTower]

^^ It's disappointing but if they couldn't find a way to solve that mystery without doing an entire episode about it, I can understand. For me it's not a big enough mystery for the show to spend an entire episode or even a large portion of the episode on.

I think the question that needs to be asked is does this excuse make sense. In a season where people have been jumping in and out of outriggers left and right, is an entire episode, or even the majority of one, required to complete this narrative?

The fact that they are having trouble completing a story arc they began just last season should raise a red flag. A good writer should be able to complete one's own storylines, not make excuses.

It's not as simple as just having a group of people on the outrigger shoot at the time travelers. There are several more aspects to the whole outrigger business. First, someone has to bring an outrigger to the beach since there has been only one outrigger on the main beach all season at any one time. Then for some reason they have to steal the Zodiac raft left by the time-travelers and take it away. Then for some reason they or some other party has to come back to the beach after time-travelers have taken the first outrigger and take the second one which they'd use to shoot at the time-travellers. All the pulling strings, providing motivation and moving around would take the better part of an episode if not an entire episode, and if they can't make it work with the existing narrative as Damon mentioned in the interview, there is no point doing an entire episode to close the hole.

I think it's fair to be disappointed. But for me, when Darlton say they couldn't find a way to make it work I'm willing to trust them on it and give it a pass, since I've liked most of the things they've brought on the show as a result of their judgment and they really haven't done anything to make me lose faith in them.

[aurorawest]

It's not as simple as just having a group of people on the outrigger shoot at the time travelers. There are several more aspects to the whole outrigger business.

No, it is that simple. They write the show.

It's a moot point that the characters that they originally envisioned it being aren't on the show anymore. The audience hasn't a clue what the original plan was, but they as the writers should have been able to write something that made a coherent narrative. Now all we're left with is a gaping plot hole and even further evidence that they never had a clue what they were doing.

[whir]

Although Lost may not have gone in the exact direction I would have preferred (too much deus ex machina magic), I appreciate that I never know quite what to expect week to week. I guess maybe the best way to write an unpredictable story is to have no idea what you are doing yourself. Both Genius and Lazy! I may be dim but, I still have little idea (besides maybe Desmond merging with that light) what's going to happen in the next two episodes. I always have been, and still am hyped for every new episode. I can't say that about very many shows. I loved the ride, all the crazy crackpot theories from all corners of the Internet and of course the podcast that just doesn't know when to quit, even against the protests of the Talkshoe disembodied voice. Always press *8. Never should Claude and Justin not be pressing *8! Here's to forever pressing *8! Uh, and to choo-choo tunnels. Why am I giving a eulogy? What was the topic?

[Jeri]

re: podcast, I'm with Claude. I want each of the Losties to have one specific purpose or task that they only must provide for the the overall plan to work. That means there has to be a purpose and plan, and it had to be them. Otherwise, why all this "choice, choice, DESTINY, choice?"